#13/13 MEMPHIS (14-2, 3-0) at WICHITA STATE (8-7, 0-2) Game Thread

[shockrah]

I'm sure this has been addressed, but I hafta say it.
Cut down the GD (gosh darn) turnovers! It's like a double disadvantage, We lose our chance to score and then give the other team a good look. Grrr!
It's killing me to watch them continue to do that game after game. I cringe watching most of our team dribble. Lots of out of control ball movement.
And then I cringe some more when we are at the line.
It was a fun game for a half. If they could only play some full games like that. If we can't play angry, play focused.

[asiseeit]

Get the best talent we can that also have a relatively high degree of character. We won't attract the four and five star guys that will jump ship anyway after one good season.

[SB Shock]

So, unless the wheels absolutely fall off in next two seasons, I would guess that HCPM gets three more seasons to get things fixed.

.

He may look at the situation and go somewhere else where he has a chance to compete (and keep his job).

[RoyalShock]

To answer Doc's question . . . NO!

[shock]

Serious and honest question, and if someone wants to put up a poll, feel free:


Do you want what Memphis has?

They basically played 6 guys today, only one that's a Memphis guy, the other 5 bought and paid NIL free agents, more than 1 with a class deficiency.

Dandridge 5th year Covid senior, all with Memphis
Walton 5th year Georgia, Juco, WSU, Alabama, UCF, Memphis Might even have another year, WTFK.
Quinerly 6th year Nova, Bama, Memphis. Known cheater from high school days.
Jones 4th year DePaul, St. Johns, Memphis
Jourdain 4th year Temple Memphis
Tomlin 4th year Juco, KSU Memphis. Dismissed from KSU. Agree or not on how the dismissal went down, hardly a model student athlete.

I think Penny gets a harsh time. Yes, he cheats, or he did cheat before the rules changed (probably still cheats all the time). But he can get kids to play together. Should this much talent be better? Maybe...probably, I don't know. But they're pretty good. Walton is better than he was here.


But they are asses. They don't give 2 shits about Memphis or anything there. And if they have eligibility, they won't be back if someone else waves a bigger bag at them.

But, they beat our ass. When we shot the ball better than we have all year. By 26. In Wichita. Beating Memphis is little more than a dream at this point.

Having what Memphis has is going to require a lot of compromise...the foremost of which is the separation of cash from your wallet to theirs.


So I put it to you....would you rather have that at their cost or live with what we can put together, for better or worse (probably a lot worse tbh)?

This is depressing. Can we change the channel?

[Onegreatracer]

Ok…. I don’t normally post post-game thoughts. But I also don’t normally go back and rewatch a 26 point loss after viewing it live.

More Abidde. The effort and creativity on offense is something nobody else on the team has and I think the lack on engagement comes from a lack of minutes. Nothing to lose with him at this point and he can expand our offense.

More of the Bijan that we saw tonight. When he’s aggressive on offense his playmaking ability expands tremendously. He’s raw, but he’s at the right level. Didn’t look outclassed tonight like he had previously. Think he’s warming up a lot.

Way less Pohto - I think I’m totally done with him here. Time to close the chapter. Whether he plays at the 4 or 5, he is just not a good fit for a higher paced offense, and running the offense through him is a low ceiling option (see last year). Dude just doesn’t have ANY of the intangibles whatsoever and even the tangibles don’t measure up this year. Last year was “fools gold”

Less of pretty much everyone else we see honestly. The defensive effort as a group is pathetic. Like, bottom 100 in the country bad. We do fine as individual defenders but there has to be something wrong with how we communicate or how we matchup, because its inexcusably lazy how this team responds in transition or even half transition when our opponents play quick out of a made basket. The ship has sailed on fixing that, it’s January.

Rodgers is quickly losing his shine with just how bad of a defensive liability he’s becoming - a lot of times in the halfway game he gets caught on the wrong guy which leaves someone open on the perimeter. I really don’t know if it’s laziness or bad bball IQ but he seems to just instinctively pickup whoever is closest to him, not the deep guy which leaves our last man who should be coming out from the paint to pick up the trailer responsible for a guy in the corner which is an impossible help with the way our defense is schemed right now.

Bell… ugh. He’s a good kid and he’s trying his best but **** man. It’s hard to watch. The dude is totally outclassed at this level and it shows. You just cannot only have one hand at this level of basketball no matter how great you are with it. With how much burn he’s getting I can’t help but assume he’s also part of our communication woes defensively. Please please please let Joy take some of his minutes in this totally lost season. I’d rather see freshman growing pains than the same **** over and over. Even if it results in less wins.

Beverley - if the kid had a jumper he’d be in the NBA. But he doesn’t and it hurts us so much. Probably the best player on this team both ways but painful to watch in a lineup with 4 other non shooters. Probably worth every cent we’re paying him, would be a great 4th option on a really good team.

DeGray is a total liability and provides absolutely nothing offensively which makes his solid defense a worthless trade off on a team that desperately needs offense

Ballard took 3 steps back against good competition but it’s still 12 steps forward from last year. One of the only bright spots this year.

Ridngal needs to work on shot selection but is the only one bringing any sort of energy or effort so he gets a glowing 2 thumbs up from me.

and Paul Mills… in my one conversation with him I came away very impressed. Every ounce of goodwill he bought from me personally with that is now gone. The intensity and effort is just absolutely unacceptable and that’s something he needs to find out of guys. I’m not out on the future and I still do think he could build something here, but this team is broken. It needs to be torn down and started from scratch with guys who give a ****. The water is poisoned and the culture is awful, and a lot of that can be attributed to the previous regime but I really hoped we would be further along with fixing it regardless of wins and losses.

That was way longer than I wanted and I don’t expect anyone to read it. But man, I’m sad. Sad for what this program has become compared to what it could be.

[pogo]

Serious and honest question, and if someone wants to put up a poll, feel free:


Do you want what Memphis has?

They basically played 6 guys today, only one that's a Memphis guy, the other 5 bought and paid NIL free agents, more than 1 with a class deficiency.

Dandridge 5th year Covid senior, all with Memphis
Walton 5th year Georgia, Juco, WSU, Alabama, UCF, Memphis Might even have another year, WTFK.
Quinerly 6th year Nova, Bama, Memphis. Known cheater from high school days.
Jones 4th year DePaul, St. Johns, Memphis
Jourdain 4th year Temple Memphis
Tomlin 4th year Juco, KSU Memphis. Dismissed from KSU. Agree or not on how the dismissal went down, hardly a model student athlete.

I think Penny gets a harsh time. Yes, he cheats, or he did cheat before the rules changed (probably still cheats all the time). But he can get kids to play together. Should this much talent be better? Maybe...probably, I don't know. But they're pretty good. Walton is better than he was here.


But they are asses. They don't give 2 shits about Memphis or anything there. And if they have eligibility, they won't be back if someone else waves a bigger bag at them.

But, they beat our ass. When we shot the ball better than we have all year. By 26. In Wichita. Beating Memphis is little more than a dream at this point.

Having what Memphis has is going to require a lot of compromise...the foremost of which is the separation of cash from your wallet to theirs.


So I put it to you....would you rather have that at their cost or live with what we can put together, for better or worse (probably a lot worse tbh)?

Well nothing like starting the week with an easy question. Memphis to me is an anomaly at this point. There are other talented programs out there that don't have the sleazy feel that Memphis. does. Sure KU has a Hunter Dickenson as a hired gun and other programs do as well but not in the same quantities that pervades Memphis. Are they an outlier or the soon to be model for college basketball. Football is pretty much there at this point and I don't see basketball far behind for the simple fact that there are fewer players to actually pay for talent. As was stated it will cost money to join the parade of talent necessary to win at a level that most of us want. Can there be a model that can compete with what seems to be in place at Memphis that is akin to a free agent system or one that would contract to pay an athlete (note that the student in student/athlete is not being used by the president of the ncaa anymore when addressing the ncaa current direction) for their services for a set number of years. Say 1-4 years and if the athlete were to leave before completing his contract he would have a buy out clause to be paid by him or his new employer. At first glance most would think what athlete would tie themselves to a contract that would limit his ability to move to the next highest bidder. If the contract was lucrative enough to start with that may mitigate some movement. As far as to how much something like this would cost it would be substantial but I still believe that the City of Wichita has a very vested interest in the success of WSU athletics owing to the fact that WSU generates a substantial amount of revenue for the City in not only 20,000 students living and working in ICT but the sheer number of R&D monies that is brought in by the campus. Dr Bardo once said that "Athletics is the front porch to the University" and for this simple quote I believe the City of Wichita should more fully support the University Athletic program. Doc provided the starting point I only added my 50 cents worth. Go Shocks

[ShockRef]

Serious and honest question, and if someone wants to put up a poll, feel free:


Do you want what Memphis has?

They basically played 6 guys today, only one that's a Memphis guy, the other 5 bought and paid NIL free agents, more than 1 with a class deficiency.

Dandridge 5th year Covid senior, all with Memphis
Walton 5th year Georgia, Juco, WSU, Alabama, UCF, Memphis Might even have another year, WTFK.
Quinerly 6th year Nova, Bama, Memphis. Known cheater from high school days.
Jones 4th year DePaul, St. Johns, Memphis
Jourdain 4th year Temple Memphis
Tomlin 4th year Juco, KSU Memphis. Dismissed from KSU. Agree or not on how the dismissal went down, hardly a model student athlete.

I think Penny gets a harsh time. Yes, he cheats, or he did cheat before the rules changed (probably still cheats all the time). But he can get kids to play together. Should this much talent be better? Maybe...probably, I don't know. But they're pretty good. Walton is better than he was here.


But they are asses. They don't give 2 shits about Memphis or anything there. And if they have eligibility, they won't be back if someone else waves a bigger bag at them.

But, they beat our ass. When we shot the ball better than we have all year. By 26. In Wichita. Beating Memphis is little more than a dream at this point.

Having what Memphis has is going to require a lot of compromise...the foremost of which is the separation of cash from your wallet to theirs.


So I put it to you....would you rather have that at their cost or live with what we can put together, for better or worse (probably a lot worse tbh)?

Doc is just bringing the cold, hard facts.
However, he has been straight forward all year and the message has been the same.

HCPM will bring in his own recruits (other than just castoffs) and put his stamp on the program.
Yesterday was not only depressing, but physically hard to watch the second half.
The lack of effort on the defensive end in the 2nd half made one want to barf.
But after thinking about it, I think it took all of their effort in the first half to keep it close. Therefore, they didn't have anything left in the tank to guard in the 2nd half.
I know that is one weak excuse, but WSU just doesn't have the athletes to compete with the paid for outlaws @ Memphis.

I just hope the WSU players took a good shower after the game to get the slime off from touching the Memphis goons.

That is all.

[Dan]

As far as paying athletes, I have no problem with the NCAA allowing schools to give kids an extra $2-3k a month for walking around money,, car pmt money or whatever they need to make up for the fact that they can’t work. But I’m having a real issue with being interested in any team (including WSU) that has annual roster turnover and bidding wars each year for players. I’m probably one of the long term fans that will just stop watching. I can’t imagine building a new fan base with people that want to see a semi-pro team with different players every year. That’s basically the G-League and they have almost no fans.

[Shocktoberfest]

Well nothing like starting the week with an easy question. Memphis to me is an anomaly at this point. There are other talented programs out there that don't have the sleazy feel that Memphis. does. Sure KU has a Hunter Dickenson as a hired gun and other programs do as well but not in the same quantities that pervades Memphis. Are they an outlier or the soon to be model for college basketball. Football is pretty much there at this point and I don't see basketball far behind for the simple fact that there are fewer players to actually pay for talent. As was stated it will cost money to join the parade of talent necessary to win at a level that most of us want. Can there be a model that can compete with what seems to be in place at Memphis that is akin to a free agent system or one that would contract to pay an athlete (note that the student in student/athlete is not being used by the president of the ncaa anymore when addressing the ncaa current direction) for their services for a set number of years. Say 1-4 years and if the athlete were to leave before completing his contract he would have a buy out clause to be paid by him or his new employer. At first glance most would think what athlete would tie themselves to a contract that would limit his ability to move to the next highest bidder. If the contract was lucrative enough to start with that may mitigate some movement. As far as to how much something like this would cost it would be substantial but I still believe that the City of Wichita has a very vested interest in the success of WSU athletics owing to the fact that WSU generates a substantial amount of revenue for the City in not only 20,000 students living and working in ICT but the sheer number of R&D monies that is brought in by the campus. Dr Bardo once said that "Athletics is the front porch to the University" and for this simple quote I believe the City of Wichita should more fully support the University Athletic program. Doc provided the starting point I only added my 50 cents worth. Go Shocks

Thanks pogo. But it sounds like that 50 cents needs to go to Armchair.

[TrackSuitAndTie]

Ok…. I don’t normally post post-game thoughts. But I also don’t normally go back and rewatch a 26 point loss after viewing it live.

More Abidde. The effort and creativity on offense is something nobody else on the team has and I think the lack on engagement comes from a lack of minutes. Nothing to lose with him at this point and he can expand our offense.

More of the Bijan that we saw tonight. When he’s aggressive on offense his playmaking ability expands tremendously. He’s raw, but he’s at the right level. Didn’t look outclassed tonight like he had previously. Think he’s warming up a lot.

Way less Pohto - I think I’m totally done with him here. Time to close the chapter. Whether he plays at the 4 or 5, he is just not a good fit for a higher paced offense, and running the offense through him is a low ceiling option (see last year). Dude just doesn’t have ANY of the intangibles whatsoever and even the tangibles don’t measure up this year. Last year was “fools gold”

Less of pretty much everyone else we see honestly. The defensive effort as a group is pathetic. Like, bottom 100 in the country bad. We do fine as individual defenders but there has to be something wrong with how we communicate or how we matchup, because its inexcusably lazy how this team responds in transition or even half transition when our opponents play quick out of a made basket. The ship has sailed on fixing that, it’s January.

Rodgers is quickly losing his shine with just how bad of a defensive liability he’s becoming - a lot of times in the halfway game he gets caught on the wrong guy which leaves someone open on the perimeter. I really don’t know if it’s laziness or bad bball IQ but he seems to just instinctively pickup whoever is closest to him, not the deep guy which leaves our last man who should be coming out from the paint to pick up the trailer responsible for a guy in the corner which is an impossible help with the way our defense is schemed right now.

Bell… ugh. He’s a good kid and he’s trying his best but **** man. It’s hard to watch. The dude is totally outclassed at this level and it shows. You just cannot only have one hand at this level of basketball no matter how great you are with it. With how much burn he’s getting I can’t help but assume he’s also part of our communication woes defensively. Please please please let Joy take some of his minutes in this totally lost season. I’d rather see freshman growing pains than the same **** over and over. Even if it results in less wins.

Beverley - if the kid had a jumper he’d be in the NBA. But he doesn’t and it hurts us so much. Probably the best player on this team both ways but painful to watch in a lineup with 4 other non shooters. Probably worth every cent we’re paying him, would be a great 4th option on a really good team.

DeGray is a total liability and provides absolutely nothing offensively which makes his solid defense a worthless trade off on a team that desperately needs offense

Ballard took 3 steps back against good competition but it’s still 12 steps forward from last year. One of the only bright spots this year.

Ridngal needs to work on shot selection but is the only one bringing any sort of energy or effort so he gets a glowing 2 thumbs up from me.

and Paul Mills… in my one conversation with him I came away very impressed. Every ounce of goodwill he bought from me personally with that is now gone. The intensity and effort is just absolutely unacceptable and that’s something he needs to find out of guys. I’m not out on the future and I still do think he could build something here, but this team is broken. It needs to be torn down and started from scratch with guys who give a ****. The water is poisoned and the culture is awful, and a lot of that can be attributed to the previous regime but I really hoped we would be further along with fixing it regardless of wins and losses.

That was way longer than I wanted and I don’t expect anyone to read it. But man, I’m sad. Sad for what this program has become compared to what it could be.

I didn't feel like posting anything lengthy yesterday (apathy I guess) but I appreciate you taking the time to put your thoughts on here.

Definitely agree it's time for more Abidde and Joy, way less Pohto and Bell. It frustrates me that HCPM has been so slow to make any adjustments to the rotation. I get that we don't see the team practice, and maybe the bench guys are even worse than the starters, but at some point you have to give them a shot. Cortes still makes me nervous with his decision-making but can actually dribble and does have a level of vision that no one else on the team (except maybe Beverly) possesses.

WSU's guards are constantly getting beat off the dribble and the defense doesn't adjust at all once that happens. Rogers can't hang defensively at this level. It's unfathomable that, with the rim protection Ballard provides, WSU gives up so many open 3s.

I said it in another thread, but I am 100% with you on the roster construction: this team needs a full reset.

[Stickboy46]

I didn't feel like posting anything lengthy yesterday (apathy I guess) but I appreciate you taking the time to put your thoughts on here.

Definitely agree it's time for more Abidde and Joy, way less Pohto and Bell. It frustrates me that HCPM has been so slow to make any adjustments to the rotation. I get that we don't see the team practice, and maybe the bench guys are even worse than the starters, but at some point you have to give them a shot. Cortes still makes me nervous with his decision-making but can actually dribble and does have a level of vision that no one else on the team (maybe Beverly) possesses.

WSU's guards are constantly getting beat off the dribble and the defense doesn't adjust at all once that happens. Rogers can't hang defensively at this level. It's unfathomable that with the rim protection Ballard provides that WSU gives up so many open 3s.

I said it in another thread, but I am 100% with you on the roster construction: this team needs a full reset.

Another thing that concerns me about Cortes .. is he's ALWAYS looking for the home run. Both on offense or defense. It works sometimes but we get burnt a lot other times. On offense that ends up being a turnover. On defense, he does the "go behind the player to try to poke the ball out" thing. Which when it works, normally gets us a decent fast break. But when it doesn't, he's now behind his man forcing someone else on the team to step over which leaves their man wide open. I'd rather just see solid offense and defense that isn't just based on "home run" plays. Let's just be fundamentally more sound than the other team.

[shock]

Doc is just bringing the cold, hard facts.
However, he has been straight forward all year and the message has been the same.

HCPM will bring in his own recruits (other than just castoffs) and put his stamp on the program.
Yesterday was not only depressing, but physically hard to watch the second half.
The lack of effort on the defensive end in the 2nd half made one want to barf.
But after thinking about it, I think it took all of their effort in the first half to keep it close. Therefore, they didn't have anything left in the tank to guard in the 2nd half.
I know that is one weak excuse, but WSU just doesn't have the athletes to compete with the paid for outlaws @ Memphis.

I just hope the WSU players took a good shower after the game to get the slime off from touching the Memphis goons.

That is all.

I think that is the crux of the second half problems. I just haven’t figured out if it’s a strength and conditioning problem or if these guys are just that far out of their depths. One of those is a credit to the staff, the other is a serious detriment.

[pinstripers]

I think that is the crux of the second half problems. I just haven’t figured out if it’s a strength and conditioning problem or if these guys are just that far out of their depths. One of those is a credit to the staff, the other is a serious detriment.

Which one is a credit to the staff?

[Singeril]

I see no reason for Joy not getting minutes. At this point, it can’t hurt and could greatly help him.
IA…I wasn’t impressed with him at all yesterday. His very few minutes were not well played. In fact, those minutes when he did play were the worst for the team during the first half. However, I am for him getting more playing time for the same reasons I’d like Joy to get more…start building for the future.
I do wonder how many of these guys will be back next year. We have had major exoduses each year for awhile. But, this year, I’m not sure that as many will have the opportunity of being “signed on” to another school. It will come down to whether HCPM has them back…and, I get that it would be very difficult to turn loose an upper classman…I think it probalby goes against Mills’ instincts…and I get that.

As far as Memphis…they have bought a good team. As I said before, I think they have a chance to go far if they play consistently (and that’s a huge “if”).

And, although I truly don’t like the picture of them celebrating, I get it. This is a huge part of athletics right now (like it or not). When we played that song “You don’t want to go to war”, you have to expect that other teams will bring that right back into your face one way or another at some point. If we promote “Fear the Wheat” (as is on those shirts), you have to be ready to take that smack talk afterwards. Rather than ANY hype, I’d rather us just focus on playing sound basketball. Rather than spending tens of thousands of dollars on t-shirts (and so many laid unworn on the seats after the game), let’s spend the money more wisely (same for all of these promotions). Who knows…maybe we could buy more players as did Memphis.